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Post by Marcel Cabrera on Jan 10, 2009 2:22:22 GMT -5
I've been training hard for 10 months now, and I've participated in 2 tounaments, even better I just have won 2 matches(one of those because the other guy wasn't there LOL.). What does that mean ? am I so weak? should I quit armwrestling? maybe all the pullers that I have to face have been training for 3 or 4 years and they don't think they're pros already. I have realized that there are many diferent levels of strenght, potencial , sizes , genetics, etc. thinks that you slightly can change, so what we the amateurs have left is training and experience, is true that losing make you learn but also a victory does. so unless you are a freak like jeff penney or chris gobby, i think there should be some rules to state what a pro is . I hope you get my point, my english is not good while i'm drunk.
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Post by Marcel Cabrera on Jan 10, 2009 2:46:12 GMT -5
once I watched a video, alejandro vs the grippler where alejandro beat him fast,then another one where the grippler beat alejandro after a war,and in wich he looked more in control than alejandro. after what? 3 years of training I'm sure now a match between these pullers would't be so different and it can go either way, why? same size same strenght, genetics and..... experience. In a tournament ,we begin with the the same weight, perfect , that makes sense, I would like to pull somebody who is as experienced as I am and have some wars and see my progress every tournament rather than get my ass kicked every time and start thinking that I suck at armwrestling, wich I 've been thinking lately.
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Post by Jeff Penney on Jan 10, 2009 10:09:17 GMT -5
Pros are the guys that earn big bucks? I read Brzenk can make up to 15000 bucks a year. That's not big bucks when you consider that he's the equivalent of Michael Jordan for basketball. If we suggest that only the guys who make big bucks are pros, then we should abolish the category for OAA events. Not enough "pros" would show. Three-time Canadian champ Joe Gould- among others- wouldn't be allowed to participate. He doesn't make enough money. I don't believe there is a single pro in Ontario in my class right now, by Ian's definition. I think we should broaden the term to at least include top provincially-ranked guys, vice world-ranked. Or just pick a new term other than "pro". I think looking at where you're ranked is a good indicator- I don't want everyone getting pissy about the rankings, now...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 17:58:45 GMT -5
By the definition of the word, there are no "pro's" in this country. The division is made so at cash tournaments with (significant entree fee's), a beginner or low caliber puller can still compete and possibly have a succesful day. The problem is that occasionally, an experienced puller who dosen't feel he has a chance in the pro class will make a run at the trophy class. In 2006, at Mikes event Melvin Peach (from maritimes) pulled in the amateur class, and in the process beat some beginners. Melvin has been in the sport for 15 years! This is fairly common... and not very honourable. If you have been pulling for more than 3 years... you are not eligable for an amateur class. And if you do... your just pathetic! I hear guys say "ya but i cant beat those guys in the pro class! So i ll pull amateur" Ya thats right!... go smoke some kid that just started 2 months ago... at the expense of demoralizing him... cause you dont have the sac to go 2 and out in an experienced class.
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Post by G Ronald on Jan 10, 2009 21:07:47 GMT -5
Well put Gobby i agree with you !!
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Post by Pat Mastrangelo on Jan 10, 2009 22:10:55 GMT -5
Well in answer to Jeffs' suggestion of renaming the Pro class, lets just rename it Open like they do in the States. Since by definition a "Pro" is one who can live on the income of his winnings in his particular sport. Hope that sounds o.k. to most. Now, I am going to voice some of my oppinions about what I have seen in the past 10 to 15 years of armwrestling. Some of the stuff I am going to write might upset a few people but I think I have earned the right to speak my mind. If when I am done and some are pissed at me please do not slander me on the board, talk to me personally at the next tournament and I will be sure to listen to you. When I started armwrestling 23 years ago, and you have heard this from me before, there were no amature tournaments. You went you pulled you got beat you went home you trained harder and kept working to be the best you could be. Most competitors back then were not afraid of losing, they came into the sport and kept compeating even though the lost for a long time. This happened to all of us getting into the sport. We didn't quit, we just kept coming back. Just think if Mike Gould had quit after comming to a PPAW practice and getting his ass handed to him by a little guy by the name of Terry "Little Big Man" Barton. Then what would have happened, we would not have the stories to tell all you guys about Mikes' escapades. He stayed in because he was not afraid to lose and he wanted to be the best, and by being the best you have to armwrestle the best win or lose. I have found lately that the new pullars of the past few years are afraid of getting beat. That is why I think the sport over here is not growing as fast as it did in the past. Kids now days try things and if they don't do well they stop comming back. They don't have the drive and determination to work hard to be the best. Now I'm not saying all of them but most. I will have to blame this on us because we as parents have made it easy for them. I know through my own experince with my own son, if he doesn't do something perfect the first time he wants to quit and then I have to lose it on him, but then he is only nine years old. Now when I hear of grown men whinning about how come I can't pull amatures because they have no chance at winning a "OPEN" class(hey Jeff, OPEN class sounds pretty good Eh?) even though they have been pulling for 15 years, then it gets me thinking of how much of a pussy they really are. I would like to go back to the way it was with no amature classes, but I know we would lose a lot of new pullers. Then again if they quit it would mean that they don't have the heart and desire to do what it takes to be the best, and we as the hard core armwrestlers don't want them around anyways they just weaken us and the sport. Well I must go know because I am at work. Hope to see the hard core pullers soon. Keep on training to be the best. Pat
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Post by G Ronald on Jan 10, 2009 22:26:40 GMT -5
Also a good point so with that being sai bring on Brzenk i'll go him tear his d**n arm off lol when im done with him if Devon feels he has enough i will rip him a new arm to......then i will have a drink and look for more bring em on lol ...this is in no way directed towards you Pat i respect you as a puller and have bin watching you pull for years even before i got into this sport keep up the good work .......this is merely a little humour cuz everyone knows i can't tear Brzenks arm off or Devons i wouldn't want to see them cry i might even let them win just to humour them lol man am i gonna be in trouble when and if i ever meet these guys at the table lmao
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Post by G Ronald on Jan 10, 2009 22:27:20 GMT -5
oh and not that my opinion means much yet to most I WILL MAKE MY MARK ON THE SPORT AND PEOPLE WILL BOW BEFORE ME lmao thats some funny shit right there lol sorry im just havin some fun im sure thats ok by most
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2009 23:37:08 GMT -5
d**n right Pat! Would you beleive that their are tournaments out there that offer a pro and amateur classes... And they are both trophy classes (no money in pro class)! Crazy George once told me that when he started pulling, they only offered right arm, open weight! He would always give up tons of weight to everyone. And told me he didnt win his 1st event for years. Imagine the amount of passion and toughness that must take. Men were built much tougher mentally 30 years ago, and even more so 60 years ago. Kids now are brought up with cell phones and homes with multiple t.v.'s. The fabric of society now a days caters to the weak... you do not have to be tough to survive. And its apparent in the lack of resiliency and perserverance in arm wrestlers and people in general.
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Post by Hugh Brodie on Jan 11, 2009 1:22:57 GMT -5
Would I be considered a "pro"? My stats show that I have had 284 matches since I started (in 2004) - winning a grand total of 36 matches (I'm sure some of them were by default). So - I have been competing for more than 3 years - and using Chris' rules, I would not be eligible for "amateur".
Oh well - I guess I could qualify as an amateur by saying I'm "pathetic". :-) :-)
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Post by Jerry Milne on Jan 11, 2009 1:46:04 GMT -5
Most tournaments don't offer 2 different classes , so it doesn't come up much. I think that if you look into your own heart, you will know if you're an amateur or not.
I also think that someone pulling X amount of years doesn't carry much weight, unless it is consistent pulling. If you started in 2000 but have only really pulled a handful of tournaments due to time away from sport and injuries and such, I wouldn't consider you a "pro", even though you've been in the sport for 9 years.
As for the lose and quit attitude, I don't feel it's good to generalize that much. Sure you'll have some, but (to use an example) , look at Hugh Brodie, Marcel Cabrera (who've both posted on this thread) and me. We all take our losses and keep coming back for fun, we don't quit.
I think that if someone should be deemed as a pro enters the amateur class, I think enough people will let them know their opinions about it.
I think even THE GRIPPLER could enter the amateur class too, cuz I think other than the likes of Devon, Brzenk, and the like....the amateur classes will be just like the regular tourneys are without classes.
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Post by John Milne on Jan 11, 2009 2:23:57 GMT -5
Pat I have to say that I'm glad you are speaking out on this thread. Your opinions carry alot of weight and you are a very respected voice in armwrestling. Chris, I like what you said as well. Both posts have alot of merit.
I do understand why someone might want to pull am class. Everyone wants to be successful, thats just being human. Nobody who goes wants to go 2 and out... but several do... its the nature of the tourney format. I think (even in a quick loss) there are things to be learned, so losses aren't always losses so to speak and they shouldn't be feared.
I think if there are amateur classes offered and you feel like you personally have more to gain from going that route then go ahead and do it. Just be doing it for the right reasons. Am class isn't there to crush people (like Chris was talking about) but more for a place for beginners to learn in a "tourney format". I personally belive that more can be gained (in the long run) from pulling Open classes ... and really, aren't we all here for the long run?
Marcel, I like you so please take this as coming from a friend. You need to take stock of some things. If you want to be in the sport then be in it totally... embrace it. If you are questioning if you should quit because you aren't winning as much as you like then maybe its not for you. Everyone has paid or is paying their dues. Everyone takes their lumps. Sometimes it seems like such a long road to victory but it can be so worth it. If you put forth the effort then I will tell you that results will come.... the speed they come is different for everyone but they will come. I personally hope you stay with armwrestling and it was just the booze doing most of the typing. Siempre fuerte Marcel.
... something for everyone think about from Dorian Yates: "In life, there are reasons and results. Results are the only thing that counts. No one has ever made an excuse for success. Excuses are made for failures. Don't be an excuse maker. Be a success!"
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 2:52:58 GMT -5
I trained with Marcel today. He is progressing really well. His instincts on the table are very natural. If Grippler pulls amateur at Mike Goulds, i 'll never let him hear the end of it! The reality of this sport is... if ur not happy with ur level of pulling... you can ALWAYS get stronger! And that is extremely enlightening. The ultimate variable for success in arm wrestling (or anything) is DESIRE. Basic Formula- (DESIRE) x (APPLICATION OF WILL) + (TIME) = SHIT LOAD OF WINS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 7:16:08 GMT -5
I agree with Jerry that most tourneys don't offer both and it doesn't come up as much. But at the same time most tourneys are not of this magnitude and attracting such a high caliber of pullers. We may see a flood of talent that you would only see at a national level or a large tourney in the states. This is not to make excuses but with the limited weight categories (which I get) and the qualifying of Arnolds, which again will attract more talent, I was pleasantly surprised to see the addition of the amateurs. I was more than willing to pull the previous 176-220 open class and didn't have a problem. I still would be willing to drop the weight (because I can, not everyone can) to pull the 176-198 weight class. But with the addition of the amateurs, depending on what caliber of pullers are involved would "not be a walk in the park" either as Eric put it. I agree with Pat somewhat about being willing to pull anyone. If you are travelling only to amateur tourneys, or "beating up only on amateurs", move on and find something else. But I like the idea at a caliber of tournament such as Mikes for some amateurs to enjoy the big tournament format and still maybe get a few wins. That is progression. It should not be something that is demanded at all tourneys, but nice to see at an event of this size. Hell I pulled the Round Robin last year and had my ass handed to me big time. But I did learn something. I HAD TO TRAIN HARDER AND SMARTER!!!!! Marcel, give it time and suddenly when you least expect it the gains will catch even you by surprise. I read somewhere that 10% can be the difference between an easy loss and a hard fought win. Not much, and it can be decided by who is training harder/smarter. Personally I don't like to see guys/gals with 5 years in the sport pulling amateur even if they pull up a class, unless they are truly not good enough to qualify top 5 in an amateur class. I have seen someone win the same amateur event year in year out. They should not be allowed to enter. Once you have proven yourself have the decency to step up to the plate and challenge the open class. This could even be a consistant top 5 placing. You may not get better until you challenge yourself. I have heard that you can learn from a quick two and out at a open tournament. This depends. At someones first tournamen(s), is someone talking to them? Helping them? I have noticed this is not happening on the scale it did years ago. I remember guys like Pat and the gang spending quality time with newbies after a tournament and I remember going more for this time after than the tournament. I paid my money got slammed twice and waited like a kid at Christmas for the tournament to be over so I could squeeze in with a Carlson, Haigh, Barbe, Pat, Gould, to learn one thing or to hear,"your backpressure is feeling great but try doing it this way". Now I do still see it a bit, but not to the same extent. To grow this sport we need to nurture the new talent entering. If we all take on the role of mentors and teachers, this sport will dominate. I love the tenacity and ferociousness that many individuals have during a tournament, but take the time after, find a newbie and spend a few minutes helping them out. Not everyone has the confidence to grab you for a 5 minute workout. Sorry I tend to ramble but this is what grabbed me in the beginning. On a side note: Who the hell made Gobby a mathematician? He can't even tie his shoe. LOL
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2009 7:43:12 GMT -5
On a side note, you have to take into consideration who sometimes you get to train with. Yes you have to have the drive within you, but it doesn't hurt when your training partners are equally as driven and better or top caliber. This is not an excuse, but there is truth to it. Teams make it easier to train and newbies learning on their own may not have the consistent training that others get. Just thought I would add this to the mix.
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